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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18316

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Hallo liebe Community! 
Wie schätzt Ihr das Risiko beim Rodeln ein?
Ich studiere in Innsbruck Tourismusmanagement und schreibe gerade meine Masterarbeit. Das Thema Rodeln interessiert mich sehr! Darum möchte ich im Rahmen meiner Arbeit die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns untersuchen. Dafür bin ich auf Eure Hilfe angewiesen! Ich würde mich daher riesig freuen, wenn ihr an meiner Umfrage teilnehmen könnt! Diese dauert auch nur 5 Minuten:  www.unipark.de/uc/MCI_Tourismus_Studenten/29c3/  Herzlichen Dank für Eure Unterstützung! 

Wenn Ihr Lust habt, könnt Ihr hier auch gerne Eure Erfahrungen und Meinungen zu diesem Thema teilen. Ich freue mich auf Eure Antworten! 

Liebe Grüße, 

Alex 

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18317

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Wie alle andern unter scheidest du nicht  beim Rodeln. Deine unfrage beinhaltet die PlastikTüten rodler , die Holzlatten Rodler, die PlastikBob und die Sportrodler  in einem haufen .
Das ist Journalismus wie man es heute kennt .
Ganz doll

Du verwendest in deiner Umgrage "rodeln"  meinst aber rutschen .


 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18318

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Diese Bandbreite an verschiedenen "Fahrzeugen" ist nun mal die Realität im touristischen Rodelbetrieb und in meiner persönlichen Risikowahrnehmung auch einer der Gründe für gefährliche Situationen.

Da Alexandra ja die Masterarbeit im Tourismusmanagement schreibt, nehme ich an, dass es nicht um den Rennsport geht, sondern eben um den Bereich "Rodeln auf touristisch genutzten Rodelbahnen". Da kann man thematisch schwerlich die sportlichen Fahrer von den Leihrodlern und Gaudirodlern trennen, wenn sie ständig auf der Bahn aufeinandertreffen. Und das manchmal unsanft.

Ich sehe, wenn ich rodeln gehe, für mich 2 Haupt-Gefahren:

a) Die Rodler, die langsame Geräte fahren, und nicht wissen, dass es da auch wesentlich schnellere Gefährte gibt. Sie halten sich dann oft sorglos an den ungünstigsten Stellen der Rodelbahn auf. Man kann sie als "mobile Schikanen" bezeichnen. 

b) Die Rodler, die schnelle Geräte fahren, und nicht wissen, wie man die sicher beherrschen kann. Nennen wir sie "unguided missiles". 









 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18320

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Wir  hier, 98 % von uns vertreten auch ned den Rennsport. Ein "über einen Kamm scheren"  aller Gefährte die sich fortbewegen als Rodler zu bezeichnen. Und von der gefährlichkeit "des" Rodelns zu berichten/ dokumentieren ist einfach grundsätzlich falsch. 

Ich find es ned förderlich für dass  was wir tuen , wenn ich lesen muss " laut einer studie., " " Die Masterarbeit des,, hat ergeben"
 Rodeln ist gefärlichster wintersport ...
Nur weil die Plastikrutscher mit uns in einen Topf gesteckt werden .

Rodeln ist nicht gefärlich . !
Plastikrutschen sehrwohl .
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18321

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Es ist halt mal so, daß alles was den Berg runterrutscht, unter dem weitläufigen Begriff Rodeln zusammengefasst wird.

Der Roman hat das ja vor geraumer Zeit recht treffend unter "What my... thinks..." zusammengefasst:
www.rodelfuehrer.de/forum/5-alles-ueber-...s-auf-rodeln#gallery

Rodeln ist nicht gefärlich . !
Plastikrutschen sehrwohl .


Natürlich ist Rodeln gefährlich, wenn der Plastikrutscher im Weg rumhockt und Plastikrutschen ist gefährlich, wenn man von einem rücksichtslosen Rodelrowdy umgemäht wird. Die Hauptschuld trägt natürlich immer der schnellere, der auf die langsameren Rücksicht nehmen muss, das sollte uns immer bewusst sein.

Die Umfrage hab ich zwar gemacht, ich bezweifle aber, dass da ein aussagekräftiges Ergebnis rauskommt.
Da hätte man direkt an den Rodelbahnen die Leute befragen müssen um wirklich alle, vom Plastikrutscher bis zum verkappten Sportrodler, zu erreichen und die dann auch im richtigen Mengenverhältnis zueinander.

Denn ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, daß sich der Großteil der Plastikrutscher, Leihrodler usw, großartig über die Gefahren des Rodelns Gedanken macht und darüber hinaus auch noch, nachdem der Winter für die allermeisten vorbei ist, in Foren wie diesem hier mitliest.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18322

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Das Thema finde ich zwar sehr relevant, aber mit dieser Umfrage-Form ungeeignet angegangen..
Habe die Umfrage abgebrochen

Urs
( Wie soll ich beurteilen wie oder warum  ANDERE etwas so oder anders machen soll(t)en.....)

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18324

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Wenn eine andere Person Rodeln würde, wie groß wäre Ihrer Meinung nach das Risiko, dass er/sie sich verletzt?

Nach der Frage habe ich abgebrochen …
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18325

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Da hast du ja die besten Fragen verpasst!

Wenn ein Unfall oder etwas Schlimmes beim Rodeln passieren würde, inwieweit würden Sie Ihren Mitmenschen wichtige Informationen geben, dass in Zukunft ähnliche oder noch schlimmere Dinge passieren könnten?

Schlimme Dinge passieren tagtäglich und wenn man meint, daß es eigentlich nicht mehr schlimmer geht, dann wird man bald eines Besseren belehrt, denn schlimmer geht´s immer. Meinen Mitmenschen muß ich das aber nicht ständig unter die Nase reiben, sonst mach ich mich bald so beliebt wie unser lieber Herr Lauterbach.

Aufgrund meiner Beweglichkeit konnte ich Dinge tun, die viele andere nicht tun konnten.

Hier geht´s jetzt schon noch ums Rodeln, oder?

Wie wahrscheinlich ist es, dass Sie besser rodeln können als Ihre Mitmenschen?

Ich verstehe diese Frage nicht: Da ich der beste Autofahrer bin, allwissender als alle Experten und obendrein noch ein Sexgott, wie sollte da noch irgendjemand besser rodeln können als ich?

Für mich sind das einfach nur die falschen Fragen an die falsche Zielgruppe (oder zumindest nur an einen kleinen Teil davon) zum denkbar ungünstigsten Zeitpunkt.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18326

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[b]Für mich sind das 
einfach nur die
falschen Fragen
an die falsche
Zielgruppe 
(oder zumindest nur 
an einen kleinen 
Teil [/b]

An alle die den Mist beantworten, Wart nur ab . Im herbst lesen wir von

' laut einer streng wissenschaftlichen Studie unter Rodlern ..... "
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18327

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Wenn man so wissenschaftlich beweisen könnte, dass Leihrodler eine Gefahr für Leib & Leben der ANDEREN (d.h. uns !!) seien und verboten würden :
Dieses Resultat könnte  ich sogar unterstützen…..

Mit bösartigem Hintergedanken  
&  Gruss
Urs

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18328

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Wenn man so wissenschaftlich beweisen könnte, dass Leihrodler eine Gefahr für Leib & Leben der ANDEREN (d.h. uns !!) seien und verboten würden :
Dieses Resultat könnte  ich sogar unterstützen…..


Wahrscheinlich würde sich dann der Betrieb einer Rodelbahn gar nicht mehr lohnen und der Schuß würde damit nach hinten losgehen.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18329

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Bei der Umfrage geht es ja um Risikowahrnehmung und nicht um die tatsächliche Gefährlichkeit des Rodelns.
Und die Wahrnehmung ist eben subjektiv, manche sind da halt ziemlich weit von der objektiven Realität entfernt, falls es so etwas wie objektive Realität überhaupt gibt....

Im Jänner hatte ich in Sexten eine Unterhaltung mit dem Fahrer des Motorschlittens, der die Kontrollfahrten auf der Rodelbahn macht und auch mit Blaulicht die Skipiste rauffährt, wenn es einen Verletzten zu bergen gilt. Habe ich nachher gesehen. Das macht er dann wohl auch auf der Rodelbahn, wahrscheinlich fährt er dann die Skipiste hoch und die Rodelbahn runter.

Er sagte mir, dass in den Weihnachtferien pro Tag ungefähr 1.500 Rodler gezählt wurden. Zitat: "...und die Italiener sitzen meistens nicht so gut auf der Rodel..."
Wegen der vielen Unfälle wurde in Italien nun für nächsten Winter die Mindestbreite der Rodelbahnen auf 6m festgelegt. 

Ich nehme an, der Motoschlitten musste in den Ferien öfter das Blaulicht einschalten und der Fahrer kennt seine Klientel recht gut.

Plastikbobs sind hier verboten, mit sowas lassen sie dich gar nicht in die Seilbahn und ich hab dort auch noch nie einen gesehen. Der Anteil liegt also bei null.
Sportrodler wären theoretisch mit 1% vertreten, wenn die Cattleya-Gruppe an einem Tag mit 15 Leuten anrückt, das tut sie aber erst im Februar, also liegt der Sportrodleranteil hier wohl eher im Promillebereich. Hauptsächlich sind es Leihrodler aus Italien und Deutschland, die im Winterurlaub zwischendurch mal auf einer Rodel runterfahren. In Nordtirol sind es deutlich weniger Italiener, aber ebenso hauptsächlich Leihrodler. Das Rodeln ist mittlerweile ein Teil des Winter-Massentourismus geworden, und ambitionierte Sportrodelfahrer spielen da zahlenmässig praktisch keine Rolle. 

Was "wir hier" davon halten, interessiert daher eigentlich niemanden. Also freut euch doch, wenn euch mal jemand um die Meinung fragt.





 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18330

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Ecco due esempi di utente medio italiano in slitta durante le vacanze di Natale. Il primo è uno youtuber di viaggi molto seguito, con quasi un milione di iscritti, e questo video ha avuto più di 700K visualizzazioni. Ad un certo punto scende di notte, a testa in avanti. Gli ho scritto nei commenti che uno che ha il suo seguito ha la "responsabilità" di non incitare a comportamenti scorretti e pericolosi. E l'ho invitato a rimuovere il video o a fare un video di correzione. Ovviamente non ha risposto.
Il secondo, è un gruppo di scemi che addirittura volano fuori pista (minuto 16 circa), dove tutti ridono prima di capire se il ragazzo si è fatto male.
Insomma, fanno cose che su una pista da sci non farebbero mai.
Che percezione del pericolo ha questa gente?
Perchè lo slittino, nei giovani, diverso il discorso dei padri e madri con il bambino sulla slitta, si riduce ad una bravata gogliardica di un giorno?
Here below two examples of average italian sled usr during Christmas Holidays. The first one is a famous travel youtuber, with aprox 1000.000.000 of follwers. This video had around 700K comments. during video ride with head in front during the night. I wrote in the comments that, because he has a lot of follower, it is his responsability not to push followers to do something out of rules. I invited him to remove video or make corrections. Of course he didn't answer.
Second one is a group of idiots. one of them is passing barriers flying in the wood (minute 16). All other are laughing without first understand about condition of the boy.
They are making something that never will do in a ski slope. 
Which is the perception of the risk of these guys?
Why, for young people, the sled is just a single day excercise of human stupidity? different is the behavior of father and mather with the little child in the same sled.
Hier sind zwei Beispiele für den durchschnittlichen italienischen Schlittenfahrer während der Weihnachtsferien. Ersteres ist ein sehr beliebter Reise-YouTuber mit fast einer Million Abonnenten, und dieses Video hatte über 700.000 Aufrufe. Irgendwann schicke es nachts Kopf nach vorne. Ich habe ihm in den Kommentaren geschrieben, dass derjenige, der seine Gefolgschaft hat, die "Verantwortung" hat, nicht zu unangemessenem und gefährlichem Verhalten anzustiften. Und ich habe ihn eingeladen, das Video zu entfernen oder ein Fix-Video zu machen. Er antwortete offensichtlich nicht.
Die zweite ist eine Gruppe von Idioten, die sogar von der Strecke fliegen (ca. 16 Minuten), wo alle lachen, bevor sie merken, ob der Junge verletzt wurde.
Kurz gesagt, sie tun Dinge, die sie niemals auf einer Skipiste tun würden.
Welche Gefahrenwahrnehmung haben diese Personen?
Warum unterscheidet sich das Schlittenfahren bei jungen Menschen vom Diskurs von Vätern und Müttern mit dem Kind auf dem Schlitten, es wird auf eine eintägige gogliardica bravado reduziert?



Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18331

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Hello,

I come from Italy and I can help you simply with simple answers.
as 1st thing:
you have to separate people that GO with rent-rodel (so they consider rodel as a stupid thing to to with friends and family and this is the major part)  and people that you can find in this forum, where we are able to DRIVE a rodel.
This is the first difference you have to consider, because the first cause of incidents is that people with rent-rodel, thinks that "it's only rodel, I'm able to do it" and from this aspect you can find I think the 80% of incidents (for Austria and Italy, too).
After this you have to consider that for a person that decides to rent a rodel, take a lift and start a descent on the track, it's easier to do this than rent ski and take a lift to start a descent on ski track, this because if you want to go skiing you have to follow some curses and training, instead with rodel is not needed (in theory).
I return on the beginning where I write that there is a big difference between who goes with rent-rodel and who drive a rodel (and obviously there is big differences also between normal rodel you can rent, than rodel that people of this forum own (professional or semi-professional).
After this I can say you that to DRIVE a rodel, the big part of people that you don't find in this forum (so the rest of the world!) should have:
-a training to learn how to steer and how to brake
-a rodel (and not a schlitte)
-correct accessiories (for example shoes to break or multi-sole, so a sole with spikes)

In the same time who manages the rodel tracks should check:
-that people that decide to go with rodel have all needed (a rodel and not a schlitte + accessories), so they should conceed only to people having all this to do descents on rodel track.
-they should prepare tracks as good as ski-tracks, because they give much less attentions to rodel tracks than ski tracks, so you can find jumps, holes, bad preparation in general of the rodel tracks (and this is a consequence about the fact that they know that big part of who goes on rodel track is someone that is not able to DRIVE a rodel and that probably has no interest in the preparation of rodel track, because he would not be able to judge the conditions of track, properly because big part of people consider rodel only a "stupid game".

So the faults about incidents in my opinion stay in the middle:
-people that goes with rodel without having correct materials and without knowing the correct technik 
-who manages the rodel tracks that permits to all these people to go...(because if it would be obligatory that people can go with rodel only with correct materials and after a training they would lose more than half tickets)
But, no one I think decides to go in a ski track with a serf-board...And I think that no one would permit to take a lift with a serf-board...
Instead, it's permissed to go on the tracks with every kind of schlitte and also with ski-shoes!











 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18332

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Vide,
I can only support your assessment!

From a safety &  accident prevention point of view rodeln - or schlitteln – is “inherently unsafe”:
Why:
- With SKI, if you stand on them the first time, chances are you move about a few meters or so and before you reach high speeds you are likely to fall down, hopefully unhurt…!!
- With a  rodel on the other hand, you can simply sit on it do nothing and let it go. 
What will happen ? You go downhill faster and faster until you stop yourself (the ideal case !! ) , or worse you get stopped by something or you tip over.
Chances are you hit somebody else,  who gets hurt,  or you hurt yourself .

As you pointed out correctly: A novice to skiing is likely to get some training first, while a "Leih Rodler" may rent such device with no clue whatsoever ,
or even  worse,  some are even drunk, when they sit on the rodel their first time.

Conclusion: DO NOT use a rodelbahn when Novice Leihrodlers are on the way….  

Regards
Urs

PS: In my “dubious work history”   I was a Health & Safety Engineer and had to explain to my clients why the heck I’m participating in one of the most dangerous snow sport activities there is…..
PPS:  Yes:  Rodeln is portably Good Business for both the rental shops and the lift operators.
And YES:  it’s TOP FUN after all  
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18333

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 I was a Health & Safety Engineer


Ich bin bei uns in der Arbeit der Sicherheitsbeauftragte und auch mich zieht´s auch zu "gefährlichen" Hobbys hin:
Ich rodel gern, fahr Mountainbike, Moped und geh Klettersteige.

Weil´s einfach Spaß macht!
Wenn man dabei ständig dran denken würde, was denn gerade passieren könnte, dann lässt man´s besser gleich bleiben.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18334

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Yes its top fun. And even if some of the Leihrodlers eliminate themselves year by year: The species is not endangered.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18335

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Wie wahr...

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18336

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 I was a Health & Safety Engineer


Ich bin bei uns in der Arbeit der Sicherheitsbeauftragte und auch mich zieht´s auch zu "gefährlichen" Hobbys hin:
Ich rodel gern, fahr Mountainbike, Moped und geh Klettersteige.

Weil´s einfach Spaß macht!
Wenn man dabei ständig dran denken würde, was denn gerade passieren könnte, dann lässt man´s besser gleich bleiben.
Wheelie,
WIR können das Risiko wenigstens korrekt beurteilen, bevor wir uns den Kopf einschlagen..
Gruss
Urs

Tja, neben Rodeln fahre ich noch (Wildwasser-) Kayak, war früher Tauchen  und jetzt habe ich wieder mit Reiten begonnen - MIT Rückenpanzer & Helm, natürlich....

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18337

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Diesen Winter hatte ich 16 Rodeltage, davon 5 in Sexten und 3 in Ratschings, im Jänner und März, also Nebensaison.
An Wochentagen waren eher wenig Leihrodler unterwegs, und sie sind recht ordentlich gefahren. 
An den Wochenenden war natürlich der Bär los, da werde ich künftig eher Winterwanderungen machen, oder Samstag Stadtbummel, wenn sich das Wochende in der Reiseplanung nicht umgehen lässt.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18338

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About rental rodeler, it is true that they don't need (they think it is not needed) to take technik lessons because a rodeln , if you just seat on it, start running since the track is streight. With ski, it is not possible to start running without preliminray lesson.
But this is not the main point. 
the main point is: as I wrote before, for sure in Italy, teenagers, or young boys and girls, are renting a rodeln just once a year, during christmas holidays, just as alternative way to spend time, in case of bad weather for skiing, or during the night after ski.
they are not interested to learn, because they are not interested on rodeln at all.
Also,  this day on rodeln, has as main goal, the crash, the incident, against barriers or against another rodeln. more crash more fun. it is not needed to learn to catch this goal.
For same young people, of course, when they ski, the crash is not the main scope. Nobody on ski tries to have an incident. Nobody on ski tries to have a crash with another skier. totally the opposite. In rodeln, more crash=more fun. This is clear in the two video I attached before.
What is surprising me is why , for those people, could not be dangerous flying over barrier directly in the wood at 70 kmh, 
If you can hear what those boys, in italian are saying in the video after any crash, "great", "cool", "super" etc etc. And the comment below the video again: "cool", "me too", "super", "exciting"....
for us, that we are loving rodeln as sport, the crash is a possibiliy that we try to avoid. it is not our main target. Target is the pleasure to drive as better we can.
Winter and water sports
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18339

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FedeC_ITA ,
Thanks for your interesting - but kind of "eye opening" !    – explanationRegardsUrs
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18340

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Why do they think its fun to crash and behave like idiots? Because the Leihrodels are so slow, it feels completely safe.
Is it a good idea to give them faster equipment? I don´t think so.

At 16minutes one  of these Leihrodlers goes over the barrier into the wood:
Although it is always good if these Leihrodlers are out of the way, this is definetely a case of dangerous track preparation at the Rosskopf aka  Monte Cavallo. The snow in front of the barrier has to be removed. If there is a wall of snow, it should be vertical and not like a "kicker" in freestyle skiing.

If this would happen to Vide, he would sue the Rosskopf Company. So they should try to fix these things.




 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18341

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Yes, for sure they fell safe because their Rodeln are relatively slow. Also because they for sure don’t go Rodeling early in the morning. But it is also sure that they contribute a lot in the injury statistics. Also, in 99% of cases they don’t use helmet.
Anyway, we like or not, these guys plus father or mother with child on board are the perfect typical Rodeler and the main channel to earn money for sky resort , except of course, ski. I don’t think that this status will change soon
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18342

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Yes, that will not change. 
That is fine, if you can avoid the holidays (natale e carnevale) and the weekends. And start early in the morning.
The Leihrodlers come later, are not so many and are easy to overtake. They make one or two descends, and then they do something else.


The Leihrodlers are not that bad. 

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18343

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@ Luchs
Als "rasender Rodel Rentner" verbringe ich meine Rodeltage ausschliesslich in der Nebensaison. In meinen 3 Wochen Rodelferien diesen Winter (Berner Oberland/Wallis/Graubünden je 1 Woche über den Winter verteilt) und auch schon all die Jahre zuvor habe ich die Wochenenden sprich Sa+So eigentlich schon immer für schöne Wandertouren abseits vom grossen Rummel genutzt. Einfach mal wieder keine künstliche Hintergrund-Lärmkulisse zu hören und die wunderbare Natur der Bergwelt zu geniessen tut einfach nur gut, und kann ich jedem nur empfehlen. An den Wochetagen sind wie du schon erwähnt hast die Verhältnisse natürlich wesentlich besser. Man hat meisstens freie Fahrt, die Pisten halten noch z.T. bis zum späten Nachmittag, Bahnen und Restaurants sind weniger voll und was für uns Rodler wohl am wichtigsten ist, man kann so fahren wie man es gerne hat und auch tüchtig Gas geben wenn es wieder mal so richtig "juckt". Kurzum: Der gesammte Fun -Faktor ist meiner Meinung nach einfach grösser.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18344

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Da sind wir uns einig. Es gibt aber auch Leihrodler und Sportrodler, die meinen: je grösser die Gruppe, desto grösser der Funfaktor.

Vergleichen wir mal eine typische Leihrodlergruppe mit einer Gruppe von Sportrodlern, die sich hier im Forum gerne zu Treffen verabredet:

Die Leihrodler:
kommen meist erst am späteren Vormittag auf die Rodelbahn
verlassen diese meist bald wieder
fahren langsam und sind relativ leicht zu überholen
haben wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodeln
haben beide Hände am Lenkseil
verursachen Auffahrunfälle
liegen dann verstreut in unübersichtlichen Kurven herum und man muss aufpassen, keinen zu überfahren.


Die Sportrodler:
treffen sich stets um 8:30 an der Talstation
kaufen Tageskarten und wollen diese dann auch richtig ausnützen
fahren schnell und sind relativ schwer zu überholen
haben wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodeln
haben beide Hände am Lenkseil
verursachen Auffahrunfälle
liegen dann verstreut in unübersichtlichen Kurven herum, und man muss aufpassen, keinen zu überfahren.

Im Vergleich schneiden die Leihrodler ja garnicht so schlecht ab. Ich finde nicht, dass die Welt schöner wäre, wenn es viel mehr Sportrodler gäbe, die dann den ganzen Winter in vielen grossen Gruppen auf den Rodelbahnen rumfahren würden. 
Es ist schon ganz gut so wie es ist. Es könnte noch manches besser sein, aber Sportrodeln braucht jetzt kein Massen-Trendsport zu werden.


 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18345

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@Luchs

What you said about Rosskopf is almost true regarding a possibile legal action i would have do...
But as you know, the preparation of rodeltracks is absolutely under the level of Ski tracks.
And the reason is that the 98 or 99% of people that join it (so rentals), Is someone  that wouldnt be able to appreciate a good preparing, because as wrote FEDE, rentals are not interested to learn to drive a rodel, they only have interest in having "fun" with a simple rodel, maybe only for a pair of day...in their Life!
I m agree, in part, about some things you wrote about rentals...so it's enough going during the week to don't find them or going out of winter holidays time.
Ok, but you can Easy find a bad preparation of rodel tracks also during the week...instead ski tracks are always prepared good and every day.Reason?
What i wrote...
If someone that buy skipass, would find at 9 in the morning jumps and holes, surely he Would go to direction...
Instead, because 98 or 99% of people that go with rodel is rentals...no one Will go to direction to claim about conditions jumps and holes because they don't know technical and they are not able to appreciate a good condition because they don't DRIVE the rodel.

Do you know at Plose what direction replied to me by email?
I asked if track would have been good prepared for a day we planned to go...
They replied yes.
I counter replied: ok i know that you pass every day, but is It Possible to know if we Will find jumps or holes in the early morning?
Reply of direction: it's Better if there is jumps, children will have more fun with jumps.
That's the level of consideration of rodel!

So in conclusion, i agree, it would be worse if sportrodel Would be too much popular.
but i Would prefer that, not all, but a 30/40% of Who decides to go to make rodel, would have technical and correct way to steer and brake.
In this way there would be enough People that would appreciate good preparation of tracks.

PS: I agree on big groups



 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18346

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Some tracks are well prepared, others not so fine and some are really bad.
But we know: these tracks with funivia are not made for people like us, and if you go to Rudirun try work on your own way of steering and braking.
So you don´t crash into the children who want some fun. 

I have seen the video where you were at the Speikboden, I have been there in January and it was even faster because the snow was harder. This is a skirun as well as a Rodelbahn, so you have to say the preparation of the Rodelbahn at Speikboden is just as good as the skislope. 

And it is also a good track for bigger groups, it is wide enough.
 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18347

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Die Sportrodler:
treffen sich stets um 8:30 an der Talstation
kaufen Tageskarten und wollen diese dann auch richtig ausnützen
fahren schnell und sind relativ schwer zu überholen
haben wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodeln
haben beide Hände am Lenkseil
verursachen Auffahrunfälle
liegen dann verstreut in unübersichtlichen Kurven herum, und man muss aufpassen, keinen zu überfahren.


 


Mit was für Gruppen bist den du unterwegs.

Gemeinsames rodeln in Kleineren oder grösseren Rudel macht sehr spass .
Und Situationen wie du sie als algemeingültig beschreibst hatte ich noch nie erlebt.
Das positive an RudelRodeln überwiegt klar die Nachteile .
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18348

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Mit was für Gruppen bist den du unterwegs.


Das ist die kleinste aller Gruppen:

Die verkappten Rennrodler.
die sieht man frühmorgens einsam am Lift herumstehen
sie tragen enge Rennanzüge
fahren oft schnell und lassen sich ungern überholen
manchmal schließen sie sich auch den Sportrodlern an
haben aber Angst, von diesen abgehängt zu werden
haben die volle Kontrolle über ihre Rodeln
haben keine Hände am Lenkseil
sobald die ersten Mugel und Löcher auftreten, verziehen sie sich wieder
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18349

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sobald die ersten Mugel und Löcher auftreten, verziehen sie sich wieder
Dieser Zeitpunkt ist meist sehr früh erreicht, wenn eine grössere Gruppe emsiger Rodler vor Ort ist.


Nehmen wir mal - zum Vergleich - die Heuschrecken: Man freut sich vielleicht, wenn man eine, zwei oder mal drei von ihnen im Garten sieht. Der Beliebtheitswert dieser Tiere sinkt aber stark, wenn sie in grossen Gruppen ausschwärmen und ganze Landstriche kahlfressen. Man hält sie für eine Strafe Gottes und ist kaum in der Lage, die Plage wieder loszuwerden. Oft kann man nur abwarten, bis sie weiterziehen. Ich kann mir durchaus vorstellen, dass der Funfaktor für die durchschnittliche Wanderheuschrecke bei der Sache relativ hoch ist. 

Es ist jetzt Mitte April, eigentlich der Zeitpunkt wo der Anführer des Schwarms bekanntgibt, dass das Hauptquartier schon wieder in Sterzing gebucht ist.
Die Meldung wird wohl demnächst auftauchen. Dann könnt ihr eure Urlaubspläne schon danach ausrichten.
Anhänge:
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18350

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Man sollte auch die Risiken nicht verachten, die das Einatmen von Wachsdämpfen mit sich bringen kann:

www.srf.ch/article/18209486/amp

Bei manchen (oder zumindest einem hier) macht sich das schon deutlich bemerkbar.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18351

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Es ist jetzt Mitte April, eigentlich der Zeitpunkt wo der Anführer des Schwarms bekanntgibt, dass das Hauptquartier schon wieder in Sterzing gebucht ist.
Wahrscheinlich sucht er gerade nach einem passenden Hotel. Das hier wäre zu empfehlen:
i.weltbild.de/p/herzlich-willkommen-im-i...4754.jpg?v=1&wp=_max

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18352

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@Luchs, yes in Speikboden and Klausberg preparation was very good.
​Yes, they would be also ski tracks, but for the fact that you finish not near the station but you have to take bus, at the end it becomes a rodeltrack, large rodeltrack.
But what i want to say is that if there would be more people with sport rodel and correct technical, more people would appreciate and would be able to judge the condition of rodeltracks and consequently more people will require good conditions on rodeltracks.
So:
-yes if 99% of people in rodeltracks Would be sport rodlers it would be impossibile to go!
-now 99% of people in rodeltracks are not sport rodlers and the result Is that (a part 4-5 places) the attention in preparing of rodeltracks is very low due to the fact of no one would appreciate better conditions (not only, rentals prefer jumps!)
-but if 30/40% of tickets sold for rodeln, would be owned by sportrodlers, we would have a correct compromise with more people asking good preparation, so maybe when you decide to go to a rodelarea you have not only to HOPE to find good conditions.




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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18353

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There is hope, yes.
But if you read the comments here, you know how Sportrodlers spend the day.

They arrive at 8:30, try to get a place in the first cabin of the cable car, and then they do 16 runs.
So if 30% of sold tickets are sold to Sportrodlers, you can hope to find good conditions from 8:30 to 8:50.
So you can buy the best helmet available and try to win the fight for a place in the first cabin. Then you might get one good run.

But chances are higher that you will be knocked out by a fat german sportrodler and then taken to the san candido hospital again.
You are KO without even having been on the track. Not even in the cable car. Then you want your money back from the dolomiti superski company. And probably they might give it to you. Never give up HOPE:


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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18354

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 They arrive at 8:30, try to get a place in the first cabin of the cable car,



Genau so ist das
"Schuldig im Sinne der Anklage ,schuldig schuldig schuldig !!
Erste Bahnen.,gute Bedingungen. Genau so sind wir veranlagt.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18355

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@Luchs

Yes i see how it works with big groups.
In fact i prefer being in 2 maximum 3 people.
It would be true also that if 30% of tickets would have been owned by sportrodlers, that starts at 8.30, in theory sportrodlers brake before a corner, not along all track with the heels in the ground like rentals do, so anyway the track will be maitained good for more time, and sportrodlers, don't stay stopped in the middle of a corner for 10 minutes and Launch snowballs there!
but what i noted is that preparation level is Independent from how many rentals went days before.
They Simply use less time than ski tracks...less attention.
They don't add snow where needed as they do in ski tracks, they don't maintain the rodel track as they maintain the ski tracks and this because the customers of ski tracks are people that make attention to preparation of tracks.
It happened to me that at 9.00 in Ratschings, the track was already signed by someone that made descents on night with ski and moto-schlitte...so then it iced over these signs...the track was impraticable at 9...
If it would have happened in the ski track, first people in the track surely would have decided to go to direction.
Instead, if it happens on rodeltrack, direction says to you: "Better if there is jumps, children have more fun with the jumps".
I Remember you have broken your sled in the jumps...
And honestly if I go during week to don't find rentals, i make 150 km to find a track already destroyed at 9.00 o clock after paying the ticket...i think i have all reasons to be very angry...
Anyway, at the moment, rodeltracks with funivia, are not the best solution for us, but it's the best solution to go rodeln.
So it would be good to better things...

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18356

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Davide, i totally agree with you. Everyone considering to buy a Rodel should read this.
Because most of the people in this forum speak German, I say it in German:

Leute, ihr habt es hoffentlich gelesen. Rodeln ist der reinste Horror. Skifahren ist viel besser, die Pisten sind viel besser präpariert und es gibt viel mehr Auswahl an Pisten.
Besonders die Rodelbahn in Ratschings ist immer eine Katastrophe. Ganz schlecht präpariert. Wer schon so dumm war, eine Rodel zu kaufen, sollte auf keinen Fall nach Ratschings fahren. Als Skigebiet taugt es schon, aber zum Rodeln lohnt sich die Anreise nicht. 

Ich muss noch hinzufügen: In Sexten ist es auch immer ganz grauslich. Eigentlich noch ärger. Rodeln dort = keine gute Idee. Rodeln überhaupt : kein richtiger Wintersport. Geht lieber Skifahren oder Eisstockschiessen. Oder spielt Snow Polo in St. Moritz. Der Platz dort ist immer bestens präpariert. Wenn man dort mal vom Pferd fällt ist es auch nicht so hart wie wenn man in Sexten von der Rodel fällt.

www.hotel-europa.ch/files/images/News/esm1502_1.jpg


 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18358

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Luchs it's a strange point of view yours.
at this point it's Better to wrote to Sicherrodeln SudTirol that all is ok and that maybe it's better to prepare track only 1 time every 2every, because till now, all worked too much well!

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 3 Wochen her #18359

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You think more Sportrodlers on Leihrodeltracks would be a good way to have no bumps in the tracks?
 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18363

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This winter I was 5x Sexten and 3x Ratschings, and there was not a single bump, but sometimes there are bumps.
If there were more Sportrodlers on the track, who normally do a lot more runs than the Leihrodlers, you really think there would never be a bump or stone? Only perfect conditions every day?

That seems very unlikely to me.

Better look at the reality: there will never be 30 or 40% Sportrodlers on these tracks. Not many people are interested in buying a Sportrodel. But many people like to rent a Leihrodel. So the cablecompanies do not need a lot of Sportrodlers which constantly complain about bad preparation and sueing them

You can see right here in this forum: there are some Sportrodlers who like to jump over bumps, just look at some of the latest postings. So perhaps more Sportrodler on the tracks who care about preparation would mean even more bumps? Because they like it, like the children on Rudirun? And demand more bumps? Who knows.

However, a bigger Portion of Sportrodler would surely result in a bigger number of Rodel-downhill-rides, and that hardly leads to fewer bumps in the track.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18368

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I think that if there would be more sportrodlers there would be major attention to the rodel tracks.
Sexten normally is one of best track for preparing and also for kind of track.
I had no luck the day of my injury.
But the point is this: why should we hope in the luck? 
Why when we go we should Hope:
- at first if track would have been prepared!
- if prepared we have to Hope that there is no bumps or few bumps
this happens because rodeln is "only rodeln".

It's clear that in one day we would be 30 sportrodlers all in the same location it would be worse!
But you should have seen Rosskopf on 7 January, it was something indecent, the second part full of bumps, few snow...
instead ski track, good snow from beginning to the end, same day, same place.
And i m not speaking about 11 in the morning, i m speaking about 9 o clock where i was the First one and alone, so track was in that conditions not due of rentals, or due of sportrodlers...


That's the point, why ski tracks have more attention than rodel track? 
Because they know that 99% of who joins rodeltrack, has no expectations, it's not important the preparation for all rentals!

During the week it happened also in Speikboden that track has not been prepared, so we found in the morning same conditions we left day before...fortunately director was a good person and excused himself about it...
now we have his contact so before going we ask to him to be sure, before doing 200 km.

One thing is sure: after my injury now First 2 descents i do slowly to be sure of conditions.
In effect if at 7th January i would have gone full gas at 1st descent, i would have injured again because when you are first on track and alone, you can not think that since half track to the end, you find jumps and bumps at 9 o clock...but i learned the lesson.
Anyway it should not be normal find jumps and bumps (not few, full of bumps and jumps) at 9.00. 

  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18369

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I think that, as for the alpine ski, there could be an evolution of the rodelbahnen.
In alpine ski, after the coming of the new carver skies, the average skill of the skiers automatically increased. the same for the speed.
So, slopes have been adapted. Slopes are wider, slopes are prepared starting from the summer removing little hills, and have been created real authobannen in the snow.
In crosscountry ski, after skating technique, tracks has been enlarged creating a side , usually in the middle, without rails.
When I started rodeling, 20 year ago, I went to Karersee in tourist office asking for rodelbahnen, because the only one, painted on the map was not existing: From Nigra pass to Nova Levante. A ghost!!! if somebody ever seen it , please tell me
The man, gave me a map, making circles, in some service roads for ski lifts.
So, how it was possible rodeling 20 year ago?

First,  wait for natural snow. no tracks at all with artificial snow, and nobody was moving snow from ski slopes to rodelbahnen
Second, walking up. not existing at all gondola or any kind of lifts serving these tracks.

Now, that rodlers are more. some sport and some rental, you can find snow even during year, like this in Itlay very poor of natural snow, and you can get a comfortable lift and go up 10/12 times. impossible 20 year ago.

If sport rodel will increase, and with them also of course average speed, rodelbahnen width will be improved as happended in ski tracks.
In case, the number of rodelbanhen will be increased too. Instead one, maximum two for same ski resort, the number of tracks could be 2/3.

This may happen or not, but it is only a matter to follow the evolution of a sport.

What I don't like in rodeling is still the bad consideration that usually people has for it. not a sport, but a joke. maximum sometihng for little babies.
No respect for the 10 clear rules always printed on a board on the top of the track:
- do not rest in the track and move immediately after a fall
- wear good boots, better with brakes
- go on tracks suitable with own skills
- etc etc etc

All of these rules are always respected, more or less, (except some idiot always available in any activity, in Italy we say: the mother of the idiot is alwayes pregnant), in alpine ski and cross country ski, but not respected in 99% of cases in the rodeling world.
It is not possible, if we don't stop at 10:30, I have to pay attention to situation like the here attacked (not an exception).
never happens to see in an Alpine ski , or cross country similar scenes.
How many times did you see, in alpinte ski slopes, possibily on a black slope, a mother or father with little boy on the shoulder? Never
Why in rodeling is normal? even if the driver is not able? Do you think that the baby has more fun in a rodelbahn than a kindergarten? I don't think so.
Little babies is not interested in Croda Rossa. Little babies are not interested in the lenghts of the track. little baby has more fun in a short simple track, with artificial animals than a super fast and technique rodelbahn. So why those parents are taking so big risks in a rodelbahn? pure ignorance.
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18371

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Exactly Fede,

You spoke about the evolution had during the years of the ski tracks, where who manages went around the requests of Always and always new users that were asking for better preparation to go faster ecc ecc.
So they have better the preparation, as you said, and now ski tracks are like Autobahn (not only as width but also as preparation).
For rodel tracks, this evolution can be possible only if number of sportrodlers Will increase, otherwise it will remain a "joke", something for kids, where conditions and preparation are not important, because mothers and children don't care if there is bumps at 9 o clock. (Someone would say, better if there is bumps! Children like bumps, and maybe also Luchs and Utah Rodel like bumps?).
at the end tracks with bumps especially if with iced snow are Dangerous also for rentals, not only for whom goes fast!

PS for Luchs: One thing is finding 2/3 bumps with track at 9.00, one thing is finding 2 kilometers of bumps at 9.00 in the morning.

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18372

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My first day on the track this winter was 14. January. I would not recommend to go the first day after christmas holidays. The track usually needs some days of preparation after the invasion of the holiday-Leihrodlers to be in good conditions again. 

Thank god there are some rodeltracks where preparation is taken serious.
But even if they prepare every night as good as possible, they cannot prepare during operation hours.
So if there are more rodlers, the track will suffer more.
Even on a wider track the sportrodlers always take the racing line, it is not like on a skislope where everyone goes everywhere.
Most sportrodlers do 5 to 10 more rides per day than the average Leihrodler.

I am a Sportrodler, but:
I don´t think if there were more sportrodler in the skiresorts there would be less bumps on the Rodel-tracks.
Even if I were a dog, I would not say: If there were more dogs in the city there would be less dog shit on the pavements.







 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18373

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Yes ...but if Number of dogs in the city increases, at beginning you will find more shit along the roads, but theorically After the increasement of shit, the administration Will Place some rules and sanctions to the owners of dogs.

Regarding preparation of track, yes in some places there is more attention than other ones, but surely for rodeltrack everyone can do Better.

It's clear that if on YouTube some youtubers put on web a video that Will have 1 million views about Rosskopf where they go in the worst way possibile, with the track full of bumps and they scream during the video "cool, fantastic ecc ecc" and who leaves comments replies "i want to do it too, i want to try"...that Is the idea that is showed to the public.
And if i was the direction of Rosskopf and i saw this video and relative comments, i Would think: "very well, people have fun even if i don't prepare the track, they like in this way. I will prepare track 1 time every 2 days, i save money and people have fun the same".

​​​​​​This is the actual situation of rodeltracks and it will be very hard to change way, because these stupid video are going to have large visibility instead video of sportrodlers have few views.

So the real image of rodeln, now, is which showed by youtubers, and this is Dangerous for whom manages rodeltracks...

​​​​​​As wrote Fede, preparation of ski tracks, starts in the summer when they prepare the ground, milling the ground and making it "plane" surface.
In rodeltracks this is not done...it could be done only if the quality of customers increases (but at moment is impossible).

PS: quality of ski tracks at 9.00 in the morning is the same during holidays and at 14 January.
Yes during holidays at 10.30 probably Also ski tracks will start to be ruined.
But it's hard, very hard, that you will find at 9.00 a ski tracks full of bumps (i would Remember, not 3 in 4 km, but i mean 1 or 2 km FULL of bumps at 9.00!)
​​​ 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18374

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So I hope all these ski-tourists will keep on skiing and not buy an expansive Sportrodel and then ride on the rodeltrack,
all week every day, for many hours. 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18375

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So the real image of rodeln, now, is which showed by youtubers, and this is Dangerous for whom manages rodeltracks...

​​​ 


People who buy a fast rodel, but have little experience and then crash, hurt themselves and then sueing the manager  are much more dangerous. They are like ticking timebombs for the managers.

I remember you said something like:   "on my 4th run there was a bump which has not been there on my 3rd run. That is the fault of the managers. They will have to pay..."

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but I think it was like that.

If the manager of Speikboden would know this story, next time you call him and ask if the track is prepared, he would answer: "Oooo vide, I´m sooo sorry, there are sooo many bumps, it is sooo terrible, please do not come. Yes, really. We plan to prepare again next year maybe. And remember: Always call me before you come...."  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18376

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It was the 3rd run not the 4th.. And little bumps there were from 1st run, but at third run I FORGOT that in that point bumps were high and at 3rd run those bumps anyway became higher than previous high (also my friend risked to lose control cause of jumps)
We were alone on track, no other people.
At 10.00 ski tracks have no bumps at all: with 50 people or with 2 people they have no bumps for reason wrote by Federico.
In the rodel track the risk to find bumps also with no one in the track is higher, also at 9.00, especially in some places (and also you found).

If this year you have found always good conditions, better for you, congratulation! You won the 1st Place for the most lucky sportrodler of SudTirol.

And I Repeat for 4th time.

I have not written that Sexten is always bad prepared or that Ratschings is too.
​​​​​
I wrote that it's not normal to go and Hope in good conditions.
At 9.00 you should find always good conditions at all, not sometimes yes or sometimes not for a reason or another reason.

The only reason acceptable about no good preparing is if it snowed after the preparation, in this case obvioulsy no one can do nothing.

​​​

Anyway maybe you have to make attention to what you are writing.
You are writing publically false information about me and this "legal action" i would have done.
You are continuing to repeat it as a loop.
Are you sure about you are writing?
Are you sure that i did a legal action at the end?

Because in this case maybe, it's not Sexten manager or other managers that should be worry about legal action.


  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18377

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@Luchs, I don't understand why you think the possibility of getting injured is basically high speed.
I was discussing this year with the director  of Sit Bellamonte (Lusia ski area) and I told my that when they have to take someone from the Rodelbahn to the hospital he is always a super beginner, super slow, with any driving ability and without any proper boot to brake. .
This is because they go off track from unpredictable places.
In Italy, in the last 10 years, there have been two serious accidents with 3 deaths.
in 2012 a 14 year old boy, first time on rodeln, in Croda Rossa. In this case, the court sentenced the Sesto director and safety officer for a few years in prison, because they did not install tree guards along the track. For this guy it was the first time with Rodeln, so without any knowledge of the track and how to drive a Rodeln.
Second accident in 2019 in Renon, mother and children (8 years old) on the same sled, down a black ski slope.
I talked to Helmut Gamber about it this winter. He told me that they arrived at the middle station for the first time with a plastic paddle. He stopped them and suggested renting a rodeln. they did so, and went up to the top station, committing a tragic mistake: they, instead of getting off the Rodelbahn, made a black run.
In this case, the station manager was initially accused because the board that led to the toboggan run was only in German and not also in Italian. But the picture with the sleigh with the red cross was clear. However, they too were approaching a Rodelbahn for the first time without having any idea what a Rodeln looked like and what a Rodelbahn looked like.
Attached here is a very short video, this year, in Renon, where I had my most serious injury since I have been rodeling: Speed ​​not exceeding 20 km / h
It was the last ride, because the rental started to appear. In a curve, as in the photo I posted yesterday, the mother, as usual, along a barrier on the outside of the curve. The girl on the other side, when we arrived, started running in the direction of her mother. Of course I could see clearly and passed without any problem.
But after that, I turned back with my head to see what was happening to my son. I was almost stopped. But I didn't understand that I was slowly moving to the left. there the track was about 1 meter above ground, due to the artificial snow on the track and no snow outside. So, I slipped off the track and hit a small mountain pine. Very slow, but fast enough that a branch hit me between the boot and the shin guard. making a hole in the skin with blood and mainly causing a ligament to be injured. Not super serious, but I needed a month to be fully restored. But think if this brench was not hitting a hard part of my body, but for example the groin. This breach is like a  knife.
When we have a fall, or a normal driving accident it is cornering, against the protection, and not a 90 ° impact, but a 10 ° / 15 ° impact.
In fact, between many runs ,we had some crashes, visible here in this video



but always without any consequence ..

It is clear that since sporting rodlers are only 1% of runners, or less, , any statistic is ridiculous, but the seemingly low speed is no guarantee of safety.

P.S. the Crash in the thumbnail, with the Blue Torggler supersport belonging to Helmut, was caused by a sort of step in the middle of the curve
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18378

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I am a Sportrodler,


Wie jetzt?

Vor ein paar Tagen hast du die Sportrodler noch mit Heuschrecken verglichen, einer Plage und Strafe Gottes.
Die Sportrodler wären zwar schnell, hätten aber wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodel, würden Unfälle verursachen und dann verstreut in der Bahn herumliegen.

Und jetzt bist du plötzlich selber einer?

Versteh ich nicht...


Doch zurück zum Thema:

Die Bahnbetreiber machen ja ihr Hauptgeschäft mit den Leihrodlern, denen der Bahnzustand ziemlich egal ist, da sie eh nur zwei- dreimal runterrutschen und nicht mit uns, die auch mal 10-15 Abfahrten zusammen bekommen und eine gute Präparation zu schätzen wissen. Wenn man dran denkt, was ein Rodelticket im Vergleich zum Skipaß kostet und welche Abfahrtsvariationen man dafür bekommt (in den allermeisten Fällen nur eine), dann darf man dafür aber schon erwarten, daß die Strecke bestmöglich in Schuß gehalten wird, vor allem wenn man bedenkt, daß manche Skigebiete mittlerweile ohne ihre Rodelbahn gar nicht mehr wirtschaftlich betrieben werden könnten.

Was sich manche Betreiber auf ihren Rodelbahnen leisten, könnten sie sich mit Skipisten nicht erlauben. Ich habe noch keine Skipiste erlebt, die morgens überhaupt nicht präpariert war, Rodelbahnen schon. Da hilft es natürlich, wenn die Betreiber selbst begeisterte Rodler sind und sich auch etwas Mühe geben.

Und obwohl auch ich eine gut präparierte Bahn einer Huckelpiste vorziehe, muß man letztendlich immer dran denken, daß wir auf Naturbahnen rodeln und unsere Geschwindigkeit und das Risiko dem Streckenzustand anpassen müssen und nicht andersrum.


 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18379

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Wheelie, i completely agree at all.
As you wrote cost of rodelpass is higher than skipass, if we consider that the most of time we have 1 only track to use.
And i agree, it's same thing i wrote previosly, it's very difficult to find a ski track not prepared in the morning, but it's not rare that this happens with rodeltrack.

The question is: why? We pay anyway the ticket, to find maybe a good preparing or maybe not or maybe some bumps or maybe many bumps? 

The fact is what i wrote and you confirmed, rentals is 99% of users of rodeltracks and who manages lifts know it.
So they have not interest to do better.
​​​​​​this is reason because more sportrodlers would increase quality of preparation, because sportrodlers would appreciate good conditions.

Just one thing: we have to adapt our Speed on basis of track.
Yes, but we should adapt Speed on basis of kind of track (corners, long corners, straight) and not on basis of bumps at 9.00 in the morning. Because we paid ticket also to find good preparing, as you said, we have only 1 track! At least, that track should be good!

Also ski tracks are "natural track".

But as FEDE says and he knows very well this, skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...

If they would do it also for rodeltracks as said Fede, probably we would find many less bumps.

And bumps is Dangerous also for rentals, in fact on 7 January on Rosskopf i did only 2 runs where second half track was not praticable. 
In the second round, around 10.30, i start seeing rentals...and in the second part i see all kind of incidents.
In the last corners some rentals went walking because one of them did a big Flight on a bump that he injured his leg!

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18380

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If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18381

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skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...


Ja schon, doch die allermeisten Rodelbahnen verlaufen auf Wegen oder Straßen, die schon da waren, bevor irgendjemand ans Rodeln gedacht hat. Das sind Forstwege oder Zufahrten zu Almen und Hütten, wo die Anlieger wohl nicht sehr erfreut wären, wenn da im Sommer ein paar Steilkurven eingebaut werden würden.

If you consider to take legal actions against me


Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

She is pretty expensive.


Ich kenne deine Lebensgefährtin nicht, auch wie sie ihren Lebensunterhalt verdient, geht mich absolut nichts an und interessiert mich auch nicht. Allerdings könnte ich mir angesichts deiner Wortwahl vorstellen, daß sie darüber wohl nicht sehr erbaut sein dürfte.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18382

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Luchs: One last thing... God bless you! 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18383

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If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.
Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18384

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Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

 

Diesen hier:

Anyway maybe you have to make attention to what you are writing.
You are writing publically false information about me and this "legal action" i would have done.
You are continuing to repeat it as a loop.
Are you sure about you are writing?
Are you sure that i did a legal action at the end?

Because in this case maybe, it's not Sexten manager or other managers that should be worry about legal action.



Da kann man schon eine unterschwellige Androhung einer legal action erkennen. Auch wenn das Englisch in dem Text teilweise eigenartig ist.
legal action = den Rechtsweg beschreiten, in dem Fall wohl eine Anzeige.
Die kommt womöglich, wenn ich nicht aufhöre, falsche Informationen öffentlich zu verbreiten. So verstehe ich das. 


Nach dem Unfall in Sexten mit Einlieferung ins Spital hat vide offenbar keine rechtlichen Schritte gegen die Seilbahn ergriffen.
Aber er hat zuerst eindeutige Absichten in diese Richtung erkennen lassen.
Wahrscheinlich ist ihm doch klargeworden, dass er keine Chance hat, hier etwas zu gewinnen. Du erinnerst dich vielleicht noch, als er nach dem Unfall hier im Forum ein Video gepostet hat, und dem Streckenbetreiber die Schuld gegeben hat. Du hast selbst darauf geantwortet.  Und ich hatte email-Verkehr, da wurde die Absicht, die Streckenbetreiber zur Rechenschaft zu ziehen, noch deutlicher. Falls mir jemand eine Verleumdungsklage anhängen will: ich hab die emails.

Und auch wenn in dem Fall der Streckenbetreiber auf der sicheren Seite gewesen wäre, denke ich: Wenn alle Rodler diese Mentalität hätten, würde niemand mehr eine Rodelbahn für Touristen betreiben. Wer möchte schon eine Haftstrafe riskieren, wenn der Streckenzustand einmal nicht perfekt ist.
Es gab im Pustertal viele kleine Rodelbahnen, die es heute nicht mehr gibt, weil die Betreiber ständig verklagt wurden. Wenn die Rodelbahn praktisch keinen direkten Profit abwirft und jeder darauf gratis fahren kann, dann lohnt sich der Ärger einfach nicht.




Letztlich gibt es auch sowas wie Eigenverantwortung und Vernunft. Wenn jemand bei der 3. Abfahrt von der Rodel fliegt und nachher sagt, die Streckenbetreiber sind schuld, da war eine Bodenwelle, die war bei der 2. Abfahrt noch nicht so gross, dann frage ich mich, was soll der Streckenbetreiber da machen, während der Betriebszeiten?. 


 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18385

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Luchs post=18380 user
Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …
 


Von wegen "Coronaimpfung hat keine Nebenwirkungen "
:)
==========================
.
.
.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18386

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In Italy, in the last 10 years, there have been two serious accidents with 3 deaths.
in 2012 a 14 year old boy, first time on rodeln, in Croda Rossa. In this case, the court sentenced the Sesto director and safety officer for a few years in prison, because they did not install tree guards along the track. For this guy it was the first time with Rodeln, so without any knowledge of the track and how to drive a Rodeln.
Second accident in 2019 in Renon, mother and children (8 years old) on the same sled, down a black ski slope.
I talked to Helmut Gamber about it this winter. He told me that they arrived at the middle station for the first time with a plastic paddle. He stopped them and suggested renting a rodeln. they did so, and went up to the top station, committing a tragic mistake: they, instead of getting off the Rodelbahn, made a black run.
In this case, the station manager was initially accused because the board that led to the toboggan run was only in German and not also in Italian. But the picture with the sleigh with the red cross was clear. However, they too were approaching a Rodelbahn for the first time without having any idea what a Rodeln looked like and what a Rodelbahn looked like.




 
What did finally happen to the station manager? 
What would have been if the sign would have an italian and german writing, but the accident had happened to an english tourist?

www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2...28-02ebd02231a6.html

In crodarossa, I read that there was a deadly accident just one week before the 14 year old killed himself. It was on the same spot, and the company did not anything to guard the track at this place. So the court said, this was gross negligence. The spot should have been recognized as dangerous.
Maybe it was just coincidentally at the same spot and it was not really dangerous. Today the track is guarded everywhere, on old youtube videos it looks different.

I asked people in the area, but I didn`t hear anything about the final judgement, I know the manager did go on appeal after he was sentenced to 1 year.

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18387

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@ Luchs:

again...now you wrote something differente: that i THOUGHT to do a legal action against Sexten, but before you wrote, for 2 days, more than one time that I DID a legal action against Sexten. So isn't false what you wrote?
The reasons why I didn't do it, are not of your interest (and it's not for reason you wrote, anyway).

I m tired to repeat same things 30 times and receive your replies out of the contest with your examples for example like "cavallette" or like "shits done by dogs".

Also regarding the fact that some tracks are free of cost, so without lift, I repeated too many times that:
-one thing is that track is free of cost, so what you find, you find
-one thing is if I pay a ticket

Surely I found conditions good, less good (as day of my injury) but also worse (indecent) conditions like in Ratchings in 2019 and in Rosskopf in 2022.
When you pay a skipass you are sure that at least for first 2 hours in the morning you find very good conditions, always.
SO FOR LAST TIME I REPEAT:
it would be correct, because in these tracks with lift you pay a ticket, that preparation of tracks should be done as well as ski tracks because who pays skipass for going with ski, wants to find good preparation of ski tracks at least in the early morning (and they find so always), for this reason it should be correct that rodel tracks with lift (so with rodel ticket) should have same attention.
It's not correct to pay the ticket and then find:
-maybe good conditions
-maybe bumps and jumps starting at 1st descent
-maybe track has not been prepared (it happened also this thing 2 times)
-maybe someone in the night destroyed track 
And a better preparation of tracks (at level of ski tracks, not more and not less) would be better for sportrodlers but also for rentals.
For your information, this year me and my friend has lightly injured for our valutation error, not due preparation status.

So before writing about "cosmic nothing", please, think, you are older, too.




 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18388

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vide, of course I am interested why you didn´t take any action against the crodarossa, but you can mail me if you want. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but I know you didn´t sue, because I asked someone of the company and he didnt know anything about it. But I remember, you were angry and upset the  crodarossa-company. 
But I think, they cannot prepare during operating hours and you have to adapt to changing track conditions. Especially when the snow is rather soft.

Of course I want perfect conditions and preparation. I also got my money back for a daytime-ticket when I did just one run and then told the man at the counter this is not prepared at all. And the ski track was perfect. In Austria. 

But a different thing is: when it becomes so risky to run a track, because everyone who hurts himself is accusing the track-keepers, only very big companies will be able to run tracks. On the tracks that are free, it is like this: if it is advertised as "Rodelbahn", then the keeper is responsible for safety. Even if the Leihrodel is free (on rifugio or malga). So some trackpeople declare it as "Winterwanderweg", or something like that. Then, if a Rodel-accident happens, they are not liable.
But if someone hurts himself and takes legal action, it is always unpleasent, also on a Winterwanderweg, so many small tracks, which were no business for the keepers, only good as additional offer for the tourist-office, these tracks disappeared and many residents with a sportrodel are angry about the tourists, that always take legal actions if they have an accident.

And just one more time, the last time, I say: Imagine that there were many more Sportrodlers, who do many rides and stay on the track for 4 hours, so even if the rodelbahn-company would make a perfect track every morning:
This perfect condition would not last for long. Because on a rodelbahn every Sportrodler goes on the same line, the racing line. Even if the track is wide. So you cannot compare that to the skislopes. 

So if there would be a high amount of Sportrodlers on tracks with cablecars, you would have good conditions for one hour, depending on the weather, and then very bad conditions and much traffic on the track. The only days with less people would be when the weather is really bad.
And a small amount of Sportrodlers is not enough to be an essential economic factor for big ski areas.  
 
Aside from that: it is unrealistic to hope for a near future with many Sportrodlers. So our discussion is a waste of time.
Just try to find good tracks then sometimes you will have a very good day. With few rodlers at all. 

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18389

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In Sexten this is final decision of court in 2016:

ANSA) - BOLZANO, APRIL 1 - One year and three months of imprisonment each: this is the sentence imposed by the court of Bolzano against a ski instructor and two managers of the ski center for the death of Romano Campiti, a Roman boy from 14 years old, killed in March 2012 after a sled crash into a tree on the Croda Rossa slope in Sesto Pusteria.
On the dock the ski instructor, Alessio Talamini, the director of the Sesto-Croda Rossa ski center, Mark Winkler and the security officer, Rudolf Egarter. The three will also have to compensate with 240 thousand euros and family members of the young victim

About Ritten, it was true that the word Rodelbahn with arrow showing the direction to rodelbahn was only in German, but in the other side there was the picture (red circle with red slash on sled icon) that was clearly forbidding the ski track to sled. So this was enough and nothing happened to manager. The mother was an east European lady living in Italy

i didn’t know about two deaths in same place in one week. I know that the father of the 14yo was a friend of my colleague that Was used to go to Sexten every year and also himself and his son with same age of the dead one was used to sled in Crodarossa. I will investigate on this second death 
Winter and water sports
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18390

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Thank you. The names suggest, the father was italian and could read the signs, but while he was searching for a way to get down to the rodelbahn, the mother was already on the black skislope. 

I remember there were 3 similar deadly accidents on the Hochwurzen in the last years, people missed or left intentionally the rodelbahn at a junction with the skislope and from the skislope crashed against trees. There are big arrows pointing in the rodelbahn-direction at the Hochwurzen.

www.krone.at/439528

www.tageszeitung.it/2017/03/31/toedliche-rodelfahrt/
www.tageszeitung.it/2018/12/15/mitschuld-am-unglueck/

Here I saw that it was a conditional sentence for the 3 men in Sexten. Here we see the spot where the accident happened:



Spots like this are nearly on every rodelbahn. 
Today this is completely guarded at the right side:
At 1:40

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18391

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@Luchs

I went deep on the two incidents in Italy.
Ritten:
The family could be defined as Italian, even is the woman has origin in East of Europe. but of course perfectly able to read italian. Don't know about German
Father and son were at the end of th track waiting for mother and doughter.
Nobody knows why she didn't stop in the intermedite station, where stopped first time with plastic paddle and when Helmut advised them to rent a sled.
So, she went on the top station.
Attached the photo of the board.
Rodelweg is written in double language. Arrow on the left
on the arrow that drive to the black ski track, on the right, it is written only in german that sledding there is forbidden. But there is the famous picture , similar to road signals, that cleary show that sledding there is forbidden.
the criminal trial is stil open. Started last September and at the end of thid month there will be an additional step.

Sexten
There was only one death. one week before another incident, but not mortal.
But it is true that the first incident was an argument in the second incident court analysis.
in this case, the judged were three: the station manager, the safety manager and the ski teacher of the boy, that brenght the boy on the rodelbahn.
Rodelbahn was iced and diffiicult at the time.
there are two final sentence: 1 year and four month for the safety manager and the ski teacher.
Then , in italy, for sentence below 2 years there is no phisical prison.

I see that now Crodarossa is more protected than at the time.
Also, if I see video about Lusia/Fraina track 10 years ago, I'm surprised to see how it changed.
From this point of view in Italy , we are enough luky. When I look some video abroad, mainly in Switzerland, I'm surprpirsed to see very rare protection.
For example Rotenflue has totally nothing along the track.
For sure the most crtitical points, mainly in long tracks, like Rudirun or Monte Cavallo are the streight sections.
All curves are today protected, but it is impossible to protect 100% of any track like workcup tracks.
Also, Wordlcup are only 1 km long.
I talk frequenty with Lusia director. He always asks me how improve the safety of the track. He added additional barriers after my suggestion.
We are still discussing how protect the only really dangerous section of the track: the long final streight.
That also is not really streight bug it is like a "snake". Also , the road, has natural little hills, that, when the track is iced are creating some problem driving the rodeln.
If you look at this my video...



when track was like a marble, how it is difficult for me the final streight. It is a streight, But I'm continuosly fighting with the rodeln.
And this is dangerous, because hills are immediately before the little curves and the sled looses contact with the ground, landing just before curves. And trees are waiting beside the track.
The "director" told me that this is a natural road for Malghe and protected by law. He can't install permanent barriers along it . But he told me to talk with Danilo, that is my neighborrhod, the best snowcat driver in Dolimity, the artist of the skicross track, He is very precise in his work, to go in the site and see what we can do. In my point of view, the only solution is to get plain the little hills in the road before winter. I don't know if this is allowed. is  enough to get plain just a couple of them.

Also, director asked for a quotation for full cover the track with artificial snow. The quotation is 300K euro. But he told me that this is not the point.
In case he decided to do, he has to increase the width of the track, loosing the magic atmoshpere of the little road in the wood along little Malghe.
I never heard, and he never told me about new law with minumum width of the track. Probably in Bozen province. Lusia is in Trento province. We will see.

 
Winter and water sports
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18392

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Rodelweg is written in double language. Arrow on the left
on the arrow that drive to the black ski track, on the right, it is written only in german that sledding there is forbidden. But there is the famous picture , similar to road signals, that cleary show that sledding there is forbidden.
 
The famous picture (pictogram) for forbidded sledging is really small. If you don't look accurately, you can fail to see it.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18393

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yes. but it is really famous in Italy, because the defense will push a lot on it. At the time, as you can understand, this incident was super popular in Italy mainly because of  italian language missing but not the pictogram (thank you reminding me the correct word).
all magazine were writing: why in Italy is missing Italian in a board?. we just need to wait for the final sentence
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18394

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Perhaps she knowed the word Rodeln, but not the word "nicht". So it could be, that she meant, that this is the way to the Rodelbahn. 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18395

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In my opinion she did' nt look at the board at all. Rodelweg and pista slittini is written in both languages and clearly on the left.
Or, she ignored eveerything except Stazione a valle, that was common o the left and right, without understanding that the colors were representing ski slopes
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18396

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www.unsertirol24.com/2020/07/03/ritten-t...t-mitverantwortlich/
www.stol.it/artikel/chronik/rittner-horn...ge-wegen-rodelunfall

If the judgement will be based on the language issue, it would be really absurd.
What if the lady comes from Russia and can only read cyrillic script? Then it doesn´t matter if its italian or german.
That would mean, if an international skiresort is safe for italian speaking people, it is safe enough. Other tourists don´t matter and it´s their own fault if they miss the track. 

But the size and position of the sign will be important. 
Maybe the woman did see the sign and thought the pictogram shows the way to the rodelbahn, the crossing red line could be easily overlooked?
www.rainews.it/cropgd/840x480/dl/img/201...06.rodeln_812205.jpg


This Lusia track seems to be a hidden gem.
I thought there is a lot of artificial snow in the track.
The racetracks which are guarded from start to finish on both sides made me feel uncomfortable. You do not see into the curves, and if you hit the barrier in a good angle on one side of the track, you may be thrown to the other side and hit the barrier in a bad angle. In chicanes or combinations of curves.
 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18397

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In Italy, but probably is the ame in all Europe, it became very difficult organize any kind of activity. I have a home in Tuscany coast, and talking with the guy that sold me the house, owner of a restaurant, told be that nobody whats to organize even aTombola (a sort of lottery). You need an ambulance, take care of escape exit, fire estinguisher ,boards, information, insurance, fire man etc etc. Too risky in case of any kind of incident. We are now like US. I read many year ago about a man who bought a Porsche, had an incident, and sued Porsche and won because in the instruction book was not written a warning about high performances of the car. The difference is that there, a lot of layer ae ready to help you in order to get part of the mony, and justice, of course, is faster.
I can imagine the mood of the ski resort responsible
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18398

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A friend who lives in Modena who is engaged in organising running events like marathons told me the same.
The course of a race went through a park and there was a step in the path, marked with colour, A woman stumbled and broke her leg. The organisers were blamed for an unsafe route of the running event.

Renon.
Maybe the woman did see the sign and thought the pictogram shows the way to the rodelbahn, the crossing red line could be mistaken for the mountainside?
www.rainews.it/cropgd/840x480/dl/img/201...06.rodeln_812205.jpg

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18399

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"I thought there is a lot of artificial snow in the track."

yes, because director bought a special tractor to move and distribute snow from production site to the track.
But they cant' do daily basis as they can in Obereggen where all tracks are full of artifical snow machines.
And this, mainly at the end of the season, when during the day is very hot, makes the difference.
In Lusia this year was the first time that Rodelbahn was open till the last day of the skiresort opening timeline. Since one year ago, at the beginning of March was terrible and never went over 10 of March.
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18400

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For a track on the sunny side this is very good.


 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18401

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I have enjoyed this conversation and have learned a lot. Federico’s comments are like hearing my own thoughts in an Italian accent. I was married to an Italian for fifteen years so it happens naturally and is funny.

Since we have some opportunity to direct the birth of rodeling here in the US, we are putting a lot of effort into making that direction toward sport rodeling to try to push out the weekend schlitteners/“leihrodelers”. Anybody can get on skis, board, or ski bike and fly down a run too difficult for their equipment/abilities too. We have a mechanism in place to deal with that: personal consequence and the law (“skiers responsibility code”, every state has one). Fools also walk into traffic all the time because they weren’t paying attention to the signs. We are going to be assisting resorts with writing the rules for rodeling; what should they be? We are enthusiastic about rules (not normal in the US) if they get us onto the slopes and keep dummies out, which they currently do. Right now, we are thinking P-tex runners, cable reins, recessed seating, steering horns, metal cleats. Don’t give people the equipment to learn schlitten-style (feet down, holding back of sled, reins on ground) and they won’t. Ideas?

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18402

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www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2...d4-32a00d355e1a.html
www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/video/2019...f9-4a4e947f635b.html
www.vigiljoch.com/de/winter/rodeln.html
www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2...95-0f03a064904d.html

The increasing habit of sueing someone who can be made responsible when people hurt themselves leads to the final closing of rodeltracks in alto adige.
Due to the legal situation, personal responsibility does not come into play.

At Vigiljoch the old dangerous track will be replaced by a new one, that may be fine. But many tracks close forever. Liegalm is  more or less just a straight line, I never tried it and will not miss it, but this are just 2 random examples.

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18403

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@Luchs you are surprising me how you are informed about these Italian stuff. This is further confirmation about what my  friend in Tuscany told me: nobody in Italy still wants to organize even a Tombola on the beach.
Also, about the two rodelbahnen you mentioned, I'm super surprised bout Liegalm.
That area, due to the fact that I have a property close to there (ValdiFiemme), it is my kingdom and I never heard about this track. I have been in Liegalm (Malga Costa) several times in winter and summer and I never saw there one single Rodeln. 
When I read the article, at the beginnign I thought bout an error. I thought that the correct alm was Malga Laab, also this alm is in Deutschnofen.
I have been in Laab alm several time too, always in the summer, but starting from Weissenstein. Only once I went up from Deutschnofen, the road starts exactly where is located the famous world cup track Pfösl. when I went there I noticed wodden barriers in the curves and in some guides it is written about this rodelbahn. Now the road to the alm is with asphalt.
at the beginnig of MArch, me and my son have been in Deutschnofen, at Pfosl track for the end of season party for ALS Deutschnofen sport team . We meet there Margit Margit Zelger responsible for Rodeln section in ASL Deutschnofen, and the Rodeln trainer. the scope was a test on Pfosl Track with ice for my son because probably next year he will belong to this sport group. We were talking about Rodelnbahnen in the area (Karersee and Deutschnofen), and they told me  that Laabalm track is now dismissed and was the official local track before Pfosl. So, at the begginning I thought that LiegAlm was an error and the track now closed is LaabAlm.
After some researches I discovered that it is true, there was a Rodelbahn coming down in the opposite direction where I come from in LiegAlm. I usually go there from Passo Lavaze and not from the road From Eggen to Deutschnofen.

Then I found this


This what I found on Vigiljoch. Terrible video


But, except my long explaination ,that probably nobody is interested on it, we are talking, for such cases (LiegAlm)  as we say in Italy, "di aria fritta" (Fried air), or "sesso degli angeli" (angel sex), traslated, we are talkiing about nothing.
How can be closed something that was never opened?
It is only a matter of terms, in other worlds, we are talking only about "disclaimer"
In the video, I attached above, the two guys are saying (now we go sledding in LiegAlm, but IT IS NOT A RODELBAHN.
So, it is enoguh to remove any rodeln reference, cancel the word, and everything is like before. This does not mean that the track is no more there, or if the track is no more setup after a snowfall.
It is just as any other winterweg and you go down under your responsability.
Attached you can find Laab Alm track, LiegAlm, and the beautiful track that 20 years ago in Karersee tourist office suggested me. 
Road from Nigra pass road to Malga Masarè. I hope that is still there.
Of course we are taling about, mainly for the first two, simple winterweg, that needs a lot of natural snow, and to be ride not during weekend because the risk to meet pedestrian coming up is very high. So, nothing closed and nothing opened, no lift, no ticket, just playing with words.




 
Winter and water sports
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18404

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A Tombola is dangerous anyway. You might be accused of organizing some kind of illegal gambling.

"Look, I bought a ticket, and now I didn´t win anything. If this is a matter of luck, it is a game of hazard....I will sue you...."


Years ago, when I was regularly taking part in Rennrodel-Competitions, I often stayed at the Pfösl-Hotel, did training and racing on the pföslriep-track with Rennrodel and recreational days on the Laabalm with a Sportrodel. The Deutschnofen Track Pföslriep was the best prepared track, and the Laabalm the most wonderful Rodelbahn ever. Great Landscape and view from the malga, and a flowing and interesting track. Sometimes the host of the hut took me up with his pickup, so I had more runs.
Then the malga was closed for some years, and I stopped the Rennrodel-thing. 
I have no desire to return to iced tracks, so I didn´t pay a visit to Deutschnofen since 2010.

I bought my race-suits at brunel sport in Soraga di Fassa. Not the ski racesuit, but tuta per slitte fatto su misura.
With protective pads where you need them.

If your son wants to go racing, there is no better club than Deutschnofen. And no better suit than brunel.

The new Laabalm seems to be a restaurant. I just found information that there is a Rodelbahn again, some years ago it seemed like guestes can drive with their cars up to the restaurant, but all that information comes from the www. 

There was another great racetrack at the Nigerpass, organized by the Sporting Club from Tiers, today there seems to be a snow-Rodelbahn with a baita,

www.outdooractive.com/de/route/rodeln/eg...essnerjoch/58464923/

I think they just use the strada forestale, the racetrack had some chicanes built in which made it much better.
But that is gone, and whining about it is "verschüttete Milch", as we say in german, translated it means  "latte versato" in Italian.



 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18405

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Next year I will search for sure for this Messnerjoch. Very strange that all internet sites are talking only about ridicolous Hubertus, and not this. Hoping that is not another ghost like the rodelbahn from Nigra to Nova Levante. I’m continuously searching for tracks in the area no matter is with or without lift. I regret also not knowing before about Vigil because seems super interesting. And Lana is not so far.
I’m still searching a good alternative to Lusia.
If my son will really make some regional races i for sure go in Soraga, Good advise. Thank you.
Unfortunately Deutschnofen is no more so important and there are few boys and girls. For this reason they need to share training with other sport teams. That means for me additional problem to the travel Ziano di Fiemme Deutschnofen.
But we will try for one year.
In Italy we say: piangere (crying) on latte versato
Winter and water sports

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18406

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So thats the same like in Austria. 

Messnerjoch seems to be another "Winterwanderweg". A phonecall before going there with a rodel is necessary.

www.iltrentinodeibambini.it/dal-passo-ni...rifugio-messnerjoch/
www.messnerjoch.com/

I remember there was a racetrack in Welschnofen nova levante. I did some runs there. It seems that is the schwarzsee track now, the drawing of the track in the map is not correct, but in google maps the forest road beneath the franzin lift is easy to find. It is not a racetrack anymore, if it still exists it will be with snow .

www.winterrodeln.org/wiki/Schwarzsee

There was a racetrack in Canale dÁgordo, but I never been there, must have been this one:

colmean.com/it/pista-di-slittino-a-colmean2?sport

If you consider going to Lana, you could also consider Reinswald.
San Cassiano is very good, but in wintertime from Ziano could be a longer journey.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 2 Wochen her #18407

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@Luchs

"I remember there was a racetrack in Welschnofen nova levante. I did some runs there. It seems that is the schwarzsee track now, the drawing of the track in the map is not correct, but in google maps the forest road beneath the franzin lift is easy to find. It is not a racetrack anymore, if it still exists it will be with snow" .

Welschnofen racetrack is still there and starts from the top of the beginner skiers skilift in Paolina area and ends close to Moseralm restaurant/Hotel. the problem of this track that is available in very few cases: enough natural snow, but not so much because nobody will prepare the track. Also, whole middle section, after the nice turns just after the start, and the kehre series before the finish is very flat and slow because snow is usually too smooth
This is me some years ago in the final kehre section:
www.amazon.it/photos/share/bohU5U99kX2Wa...SlPSoikCQXl5ukoeT5kM

If there are no strong reason to prepare a track (ticket to be paid, Malga to be easily reached (and spend money eating) or structures to be served (for example, top station of a lifl) nobody spend time and money to do this job.

about Winterwanderweg, the prblem is always the same and not only the needs to call asking for conditions:
during weekends is too risky and stressing run along these tracks. you can meet too many pedestrian, babies, dogs, etc etc
Also, a risk to meet a snowbike, or even cars, las said by the two guys in the video of LiegAlm.
I dont' have, as UtahRodel, an "apripista" (Vorlaufer?) that goes down in advance that warns about my coming.
These tracks are ideal out of holidays (Christmas and Carnival) and weekends, Impossible for me and everybody with sons in school age.
It is a pity because I usually like hike with my sled and come down sledding (Val Venegia in Paneveggio natural park is one of my favorite track)

About traveling far searching for new rodelbahnen, the problem is again what everybody underlined in this topic.
Since, are available, inside a skiresort, only one, maximum two rodelbahnen, with also the limit that can be fully enjoied only for 2, max 3 hours, because of rentals, because of race line as you mentioned before that is destroied in few hours, is not worth traveling for 4/5 houres (two ways of course). When I was going skiing from Milano to Switzerland or Aosta valley, for a one day ski, it was normal to travel for this number of hours, but, I could enjoy a full day on ski with several different tracks.
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 7 Monate 1 Woche her #18408

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There is a clip of the old racetrack in Canale d Agordo.
World Cup 1999. Probably the track is a ghost today like Welschnofen.

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