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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 1 Woche her #18359

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You think more Sportrodlers on Leihrodeltracks would be a good way to have no bumps in the tracks?
 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 6 Tage her #18363

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This winter I was 5x Sexten and 3x Ratschings, and there was not a single bump, but sometimes there are bumps.
If there were more Sportrodlers on the track, who normally do a lot more runs than the Leihrodlers, you really think there would never be a bump or stone? Only perfect conditions every day?

That seems very unlikely to me.

Better look at the reality: there will never be 30 or 40% Sportrodlers on these tracks. Not many people are interested in buying a Sportrodel. But many people like to rent a Leihrodel. So the cablecompanies do not need a lot of Sportrodlers which constantly complain about bad preparation and sueing them

You can see right here in this forum: there are some Sportrodlers who like to jump over bumps, just look at some of the latest postings. So perhaps more Sportrodler on the tracks who care about preparation would mean even more bumps? Because they like it, like the children on Rudirun? And demand more bumps? Who knows.

However, a bigger Portion of Sportrodler would surely result in a bigger number of Rodel-downhill-rides, and that hardly leads to fewer bumps in the track.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 5 Tage her #18368

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I think that if there would be more sportrodlers there would be major attention to the rodel tracks.
Sexten normally is one of best track for preparing and also for kind of track.
I had no luck the day of my injury.
But the point is this: why should we hope in the luck? 
Why when we go we should Hope:
- at first if track would have been prepared!
- if prepared we have to Hope that there is no bumps or few bumps
this happens because rodeln is "only rodeln".

It's clear that in one day we would be 30 sportrodlers all in the same location it would be worse!
But you should have seen Rosskopf on 7 January, it was something indecent, the second part full of bumps, few snow...
instead ski track, good snow from beginning to the end, same day, same place.
And i m not speaking about 11 in the morning, i m speaking about 9 o clock where i was the First one and alone, so track was in that conditions not due of rentals, or due of sportrodlers...


That's the point, why ski tracks have more attention than rodel track? 
Because they know that 99% of who joins rodeltrack, has no expectations, it's not important the preparation for all rentals!

During the week it happened also in Speikboden that track has not been prepared, so we found in the morning same conditions we left day before...fortunately director was a good person and excused himself about it...
now we have his contact so before going we ask to him to be sure, before doing 200 km.

One thing is sure: after my injury now First 2 descents i do slowly to be sure of conditions.
In effect if at 7th January i would have gone full gas at 1st descent, i would have injured again because when you are first on track and alone, you can not think that since half track to the end, you find jumps and bumps at 9 o clock...but i learned the lesson.
Anyway it should not be normal find jumps and bumps (not few, full of bumps and jumps) at 9.00. 

  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 5 Tage her #18369

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I think that, as for the alpine ski, there could be an evolution of the rodelbahnen.
In alpine ski, after the coming of the new carver skies, the average skill of the skiers automatically increased. the same for the speed.
So, slopes have been adapted. Slopes are wider, slopes are prepared starting from the summer removing little hills, and have been created real authobannen in the snow.
In crosscountry ski, after skating technique, tracks has been enlarged creating a side , usually in the middle, without rails.
When I started rodeling, 20 year ago, I went to Karersee in tourist office asking for rodelbahnen, because the only one, painted on the map was not existing: From Nigra pass to Nova Levante. A ghost!!! if somebody ever seen it , please tell me
The man, gave me a map, making circles, in some service roads for ski lifts.
So, how it was possible rodeling 20 year ago?

First,  wait for natural snow. no tracks at all with artificial snow, and nobody was moving snow from ski slopes to rodelbahnen
Second, walking up. not existing at all gondola or any kind of lifts serving these tracks.

Now, that rodlers are more. some sport and some rental, you can find snow even during year, like this in Itlay very poor of natural snow, and you can get a comfortable lift and go up 10/12 times. impossible 20 year ago.

If sport rodel will increase, and with them also of course average speed, rodelbahnen width will be improved as happended in ski tracks.
In case, the number of rodelbanhen will be increased too. Instead one, maximum two for same ski resort, the number of tracks could be 2/3.

This may happen or not, but it is only a matter to follow the evolution of a sport.

What I don't like in rodeling is still the bad consideration that usually people has for it. not a sport, but a joke. maximum sometihng for little babies.
No respect for the 10 clear rules always printed on a board on the top of the track:
- do not rest in the track and move immediately after a fall
- wear good boots, better with brakes
- go on tracks suitable with own skills
- etc etc etc

All of these rules are always respected, more or less, (except some idiot always available in any activity, in Italy we say: the mother of the idiot is alwayes pregnant), in alpine ski and cross country ski, but not respected in 99% of cases in the rodeling world.
It is not possible, if we don't stop at 10:30, I have to pay attention to situation like the here attacked (not an exception).
never happens to see in an Alpine ski , or cross country similar scenes.
How many times did you see, in alpinte ski slopes, possibily on a black slope, a mother or father with little boy on the shoulder? Never
Why in rodeling is normal? even if the driver is not able? Do you think that the baby has more fun in a rodelbahn than a kindergarten? I don't think so.
Little babies is not interested in Croda Rossa. Little babies are not interested in the lenghts of the track. little baby has more fun in a short simple track, with artificial animals than a super fast and technique rodelbahn. So why those parents are taking so big risks in a rodelbahn? pure ignorance.
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 5 Tage her #18371

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Exactly Fede,

You spoke about the evolution had during the years of the ski tracks, where who manages went around the requests of Always and always new users that were asking for better preparation to go faster ecc ecc.
So they have better the preparation, as you said, and now ski tracks are like Autobahn (not only as width but also as preparation).
For rodel tracks, this evolution can be possible only if number of sportrodlers Will increase, otherwise it will remain a "joke", something for kids, where conditions and preparation are not important, because mothers and children don't care if there is bumps at 9 o clock. (Someone would say, better if there is bumps! Children like bumps, and maybe also Luchs and Utah Rodel like bumps?).
at the end tracks with bumps especially if with iced snow are Dangerous also for rentals, not only for whom goes fast!

PS for Luchs: One thing is finding 2/3 bumps with track at 9.00, one thing is finding 2 kilometers of bumps at 9.00 in the morning.

 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18372

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My first day on the track this winter was 14. January. I would not recommend to go the first day after christmas holidays. The track usually needs some days of preparation after the invasion of the holiday-Leihrodlers to be in good conditions again. 

Thank god there are some rodeltracks where preparation is taken serious.
But even if they prepare every night as good as possible, they cannot prepare during operation hours.
So if there are more rodlers, the track will suffer more.
Even on a wider track the sportrodlers always take the racing line, it is not like on a skislope where everyone goes everywhere.
Most sportrodlers do 5 to 10 more rides per day than the average Leihrodler.

I am a Sportrodler, but:
I don´t think if there were more sportrodler in the skiresorts there would be less bumps on the Rodel-tracks.
Even if I were a dog, I would not say: If there were more dogs in the city there would be less dog shit on the pavements.







 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18373

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Yes ...but if Number of dogs in the city increases, at beginning you will find more shit along the roads, but theorically After the increasement of shit, the administration Will Place some rules and sanctions to the owners of dogs.

Regarding preparation of track, yes in some places there is more attention than other ones, but surely for rodeltrack everyone can do Better.

It's clear that if on YouTube some youtubers put on web a video that Will have 1 million views about Rosskopf where they go in the worst way possibile, with the track full of bumps and they scream during the video "cool, fantastic ecc ecc" and who leaves comments replies "i want to do it too, i want to try"...that Is the idea that is showed to the public.
And if i was the direction of Rosskopf and i saw this video and relative comments, i Would think: "very well, people have fun even if i don't prepare the track, they like in this way. I will prepare track 1 time every 2 days, i save money and people have fun the same".

​​​​​​This is the actual situation of rodeltracks and it will be very hard to change way, because these stupid video are going to have large visibility instead video of sportrodlers have few views.

So the real image of rodeln, now, is which showed by youtubers, and this is Dangerous for whom manages rodeltracks...

​​​​​​As wrote Fede, preparation of ski tracks, starts in the summer when they prepare the ground, milling the ground and making it "plane" surface.
In rodeltracks this is not done...it could be done only if the quality of customers increases (but at moment is impossible).

PS: quality of ski tracks at 9.00 in the morning is the same during holidays and at 14 January.
Yes during holidays at 10.30 probably Also ski tracks will start to be ruined.
But it's hard, very hard, that you will find at 9.00 a ski tracks full of bumps (i would Remember, not 3 in 4 km, but i mean 1 or 2 km FULL of bumps at 9.00!)
​​​ 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18374

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So I hope all these ski-tourists will keep on skiing and not buy an expansive Sportrodel and then ride on the rodeltrack,
all week every day, for many hours. 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18375

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So the real image of rodeln, now, is which showed by youtubers, and this is Dangerous for whom manages rodeltracks...

​​​ 


People who buy a fast rodel, but have little experience and then crash, hurt themselves and then sueing the manager  are much more dangerous. They are like ticking timebombs for the managers.

I remember you said something like:   "on my 4th run there was a bump which has not been there on my 3rd run. That is the fault of the managers. They will have to pay..."

Please correct me if I´m wrong, but I think it was like that.

If the manager of Speikboden would know this story, next time you call him and ask if the track is prepared, he would answer: "Oooo vide, I´m sooo sorry, there are sooo many bumps, it is sooo terrible, please do not come. Yes, really. We plan to prepare again next year maybe. And remember: Always call me before you come...."  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18376

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It was the 3rd run not the 4th.. And little bumps there were from 1st run, but at third run I FORGOT that in that point bumps were high and at 3rd run those bumps anyway became higher than previous high (also my friend risked to lose control cause of jumps)
We were alone on track, no other people.
At 10.00 ski tracks have no bumps at all: with 50 people or with 2 people they have no bumps for reason wrote by Federico.
In the rodel track the risk to find bumps also with no one in the track is higher, also at 9.00, especially in some places (and also you found).

If this year you have found always good conditions, better for you, congratulation! You won the 1st Place for the most lucky sportrodler of SudTirol.

And I Repeat for 4th time.

I have not written that Sexten is always bad prepared or that Ratschings is too.
​​​​​
I wrote that it's not normal to go and Hope in good conditions.
At 9.00 you should find always good conditions at all, not sometimes yes or sometimes not for a reason or another reason.

The only reason acceptable about no good preparing is if it snowed after the preparation, in this case obvioulsy no one can do nothing.

​​​

Anyway maybe you have to make attention to what you are writing.
You are writing publically false information about me and this "legal action" i would have done.
You are continuing to repeat it as a loop.
Are you sure about you are writing?
Are you sure that i did a legal action at the end?

Because in this case maybe, it's not Sexten manager or other managers that should be worry about legal action.


  

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18377

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@Luchs, I don't understand why you think the possibility of getting injured is basically high speed.
I was discussing this year with the director  of Sit Bellamonte (Lusia ski area) and I told my that when they have to take someone from the Rodelbahn to the hospital he is always a super beginner, super slow, with any driving ability and without any proper boot to brake. .
This is because they go off track from unpredictable places.
In Italy, in the last 10 years, there have been two serious accidents with 3 deaths.
in 2012 a 14 year old boy, first time on rodeln, in Croda Rossa. In this case, the court sentenced the Sesto director and safety officer for a few years in prison, because they did not install tree guards along the track. For this guy it was the first time with Rodeln, so without any knowledge of the track and how to drive a Rodeln.
Second accident in 2019 in Renon, mother and children (8 years old) on the same sled, down a black ski slope.
I talked to Helmut Gamber about it this winter. He told me that they arrived at the middle station for the first time with a plastic paddle. He stopped them and suggested renting a rodeln. they did so, and went up to the top station, committing a tragic mistake: they, instead of getting off the Rodelbahn, made a black run.
In this case, the station manager was initially accused because the board that led to the toboggan run was only in German and not also in Italian. But the picture with the sleigh with the red cross was clear. However, they too were approaching a Rodelbahn for the first time without having any idea what a Rodeln looked like and what a Rodelbahn looked like.
Attached here is a very short video, this year, in Renon, where I had my most serious injury since I have been rodeling: Speed ​​not exceeding 20 km / h
It was the last ride, because the rental started to appear. In a curve, as in the photo I posted yesterday, the mother, as usual, along a barrier on the outside of the curve. The girl on the other side, when we arrived, started running in the direction of her mother. Of course I could see clearly and passed without any problem.
But after that, I turned back with my head to see what was happening to my son. I was almost stopped. But I didn't understand that I was slowly moving to the left. there the track was about 1 meter above ground, due to the artificial snow on the track and no snow outside. So, I slipped off the track and hit a small mountain pine. Very slow, but fast enough that a branch hit me between the boot and the shin guard. making a hole in the skin with blood and mainly causing a ligament to be injured. Not super serious, but I needed a month to be fully restored. But think if this brench was not hitting a hard part of my body, but for example the groin. This breach is like a  knife.
When we have a fall, or a normal driving accident it is cornering, against the protection, and not a 90 ° impact, but a 10 ° / 15 ° impact.
In fact, between many runs ,we had some crashes, visible here in this video



but always without any consequence ..

It is clear that since sporting rodlers are only 1% of runners, or less, , any statistic is ridiculous, but the seemingly low speed is no guarantee of safety.

P.S. the Crash in the thumbnail, with the Blue Torggler supersport belonging to Helmut, was caused by a sort of step in the middle of the curve
 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18378

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I am a Sportrodler,


Wie jetzt?

Vor ein paar Tagen hast du die Sportrodler noch mit Heuschrecken verglichen, einer Plage und Strafe Gottes.
Die Sportrodler wären zwar schnell, hätten aber wenig Kontrolle über ihre Rodel, würden Unfälle verursachen und dann verstreut in der Bahn herumliegen.

Und jetzt bist du plötzlich selber einer?

Versteh ich nicht...


Doch zurück zum Thema:

Die Bahnbetreiber machen ja ihr Hauptgeschäft mit den Leihrodlern, denen der Bahnzustand ziemlich egal ist, da sie eh nur zwei- dreimal runterrutschen und nicht mit uns, die auch mal 10-15 Abfahrten zusammen bekommen und eine gute Präparation zu schätzen wissen. Wenn man dran denkt, was ein Rodelticket im Vergleich zum Skipaß kostet und welche Abfahrtsvariationen man dafür bekommt (in den allermeisten Fällen nur eine), dann darf man dafür aber schon erwarten, daß die Strecke bestmöglich in Schuß gehalten wird, vor allem wenn man bedenkt, daß manche Skigebiete mittlerweile ohne ihre Rodelbahn gar nicht mehr wirtschaftlich betrieben werden könnten.

Was sich manche Betreiber auf ihren Rodelbahnen leisten, könnten sie sich mit Skipisten nicht erlauben. Ich habe noch keine Skipiste erlebt, die morgens überhaupt nicht präpariert war, Rodelbahnen schon. Da hilft es natürlich, wenn die Betreiber selbst begeisterte Rodler sind und sich auch etwas Mühe geben.

Und obwohl auch ich eine gut präparierte Bahn einer Huckelpiste vorziehe, muß man letztendlich immer dran denken, daß wir auf Naturbahnen rodeln und unsere Geschwindigkeit und das Risiko dem Streckenzustand anpassen müssen und nicht andersrum.


 
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18379

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Wheelie, i completely agree at all.
As you wrote cost of rodelpass is higher than skipass, if we consider that the most of time we have 1 only track to use.
And i agree, it's same thing i wrote previosly, it's very difficult to find a ski track not prepared in the morning, but it's not rare that this happens with rodeltrack.

The question is: why? We pay anyway the ticket, to find maybe a good preparing or maybe not or maybe some bumps or maybe many bumps? 

The fact is what i wrote and you confirmed, rentals is 99% of users of rodeltracks and who manages lifts know it.
So they have not interest to do better.
​​​​​​this is reason because more sportrodlers would increase quality of preparation, because sportrodlers would appreciate good conditions.

Just one thing: we have to adapt our Speed on basis of track.
Yes, but we should adapt Speed on basis of kind of track (corners, long corners, straight) and not on basis of bumps at 9.00 in the morning. Because we paid ticket also to find good preparing, as you said, we have only 1 track! At least, that track should be good!

Also ski tracks are "natural track".

But as FEDE says and he knows very well this, skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...

If they would do it also for rodeltracks as said Fede, probably we would find many less bumps.

And bumps is Dangerous also for rentals, in fact on 7 January on Rosskopf i did only 2 runs where second half track was not praticable. 
In the second round, around 10.30, i start seeing rentals...and in the second part i see all kind of incidents.
In the last corners some rentals went walking because one of them did a big Flight on a bump that he injured his leg!

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 4 Tage her #18380

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If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18381

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skitracks preparation starts in summer, when they mill the ground...


Ja schon, doch die allermeisten Rodelbahnen verlaufen auf Wegen oder Straßen, die schon da waren, bevor irgendjemand ans Rodeln gedacht hat. Das sind Forstwege oder Zufahrten zu Almen und Hütten, wo die Anlieger wohl nicht sehr erfreut wären, wenn da im Sommer ein paar Steilkurven eingebaut werden würden.

If you consider to take legal actions against me


Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

She is pretty expensive.


Ich kenne deine Lebensgefährtin nicht, auch wie sie ihren Lebensunterhalt verdient, geht mich absolut nichts an und interessiert mich auch nicht. Allerdings könnte ich mir angesichts deiner Wortwahl vorstellen, daß sie darüber wohl nicht sehr erbaut sein dürfte.

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18382

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Luchs: One last thing... God bless you! 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18383

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If you consider to take legal actions against me, don´t hesitate.
Did I tell you that my girlfriend is a lawyer? Well, if you loose the case, you have to pay her fee. I hope you can afford that.

She is pretty expensive. She has a Private Pilote License and her own small propeller-aircraft. It´s a bit cramped inside, now she thinks about purchasing a bigger one. So the money is very welcome, especially if its earned so easy.
Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18384

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Deine Ausführungen verwirren mich immer mehr, Christian.
Ich kann beim besten Willen nicht erkennen, auf welchen Beitrag du Bezug nimmst.

 

Diesen hier:

Anyway maybe you have to make attention to what you are writing.
You are writing publically false information about me and this "legal action" i would have done.
You are continuing to repeat it as a loop.
Are you sure about you are writing?
Are you sure that i did a legal action at the end?

Because in this case maybe, it's not Sexten manager or other managers that should be worry about legal action.



Da kann man schon eine unterschwellige Androhung einer legal action erkennen. Auch wenn das Englisch in dem Text teilweise eigenartig ist.
legal action = den Rechtsweg beschreiten, in dem Fall wohl eine Anzeige.
Die kommt womöglich, wenn ich nicht aufhöre, falsche Informationen öffentlich zu verbreiten. So verstehe ich das. 


Nach dem Unfall in Sexten mit Einlieferung ins Spital hat vide offenbar keine rechtlichen Schritte gegen die Seilbahn ergriffen.
Aber er hat zuerst eindeutige Absichten in diese Richtung erkennen lassen.
Wahrscheinlich ist ihm doch klargeworden, dass er keine Chance hat, hier etwas zu gewinnen. Du erinnerst dich vielleicht noch, als er nach dem Unfall hier im Forum ein Video gepostet hat, und dem Streckenbetreiber die Schuld gegeben hat. Du hast selbst darauf geantwortet.  Und ich hatte email-Verkehr, da wurde die Absicht, die Streckenbetreiber zur Rechenschaft zu ziehen, noch deutlicher. Falls mir jemand eine Verleumdungsklage anhängen will: ich hab die emails.

Und auch wenn in dem Fall der Streckenbetreiber auf der sicheren Seite gewesen wäre, denke ich: Wenn alle Rodler diese Mentalität hätten, würde niemand mehr eine Rodelbahn für Touristen betreiben. Wer möchte schon eine Haftstrafe riskieren, wenn der Streckenzustand einmal nicht perfekt ist.
Es gab im Pustertal viele kleine Rodelbahnen, die es heute nicht mehr gibt, weil die Betreiber ständig verklagt wurden. Wenn die Rodelbahn praktisch keinen direkten Profit abwirft und jeder darauf gratis fahren kann, dann lohnt sich der Ärger einfach nicht.




Letztlich gibt es auch sowas wie Eigenverantwortung und Vernunft. Wenn jemand bei der 3. Abfahrt von der Rodel fliegt und nachher sagt, die Streckenbetreiber sind schuld, da war eine Bodenwelle, die war bei der 2. Abfahrt noch nicht so gross, dann frage ich mich, was soll der Streckenbetreiber da machen, während der Betriebszeiten?. 


 

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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18385

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Luchs post=18380 user
Was geht denn bei dir ab? Das was du zu dir nimmst, solltest du schleunigst absetzen …
 


Von wegen "Coronaimpfung hat keine Nebenwirkungen "
:)
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Die Risikowahrnehmung des Rodelns 5 Monate 3 Tage her #18386

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In Italy, in the last 10 years, there have been two serious accidents with 3 deaths.
in 2012 a 14 year old boy, first time on rodeln, in Croda Rossa. In this case, the court sentenced the Sesto director and safety officer for a few years in prison, because they did not install tree guards along the track. For this guy it was the first time with Rodeln, so without any knowledge of the track and how to drive a Rodeln.
Second accident in 2019 in Renon, mother and children (8 years old) on the same sled, down a black ski slope.
I talked to Helmut Gamber about it this winter. He told me that they arrived at the middle station for the first time with a plastic paddle. He stopped them and suggested renting a rodeln. they did so, and went up to the top station, committing a tragic mistake: they, instead of getting off the Rodelbahn, made a black run.
In this case, the station manager was initially accused because the board that led to the toboggan run was only in German and not also in Italian. But the picture with the sleigh with the red cross was clear. However, they too were approaching a Rodelbahn for the first time without having any idea what a Rodeln looked like and what a Rodelbahn looked like.




 
What did finally happen to the station manager? 
What would have been if the sign would have an italian and german writing, but the accident had happened to an english tourist?

www.rainews.it/tgr/tagesschau/articoli/2...28-02ebd02231a6.html

In crodarossa, I read that there was a deadly accident just one week before the 14 year old killed himself. It was on the same spot, and the company did not anything to guard the track at this place. So the court said, this was gross negligence. The spot should have been recognized as dangerous.
Maybe it was just coincidentally at the same spot and it was not really dangerous. Today the track is guarded everywhere, on old youtube videos it looks different.

I asked people in the area, but I didn`t hear anything about the final judgement, I know the manager did go on appeal after he was sentenced to 1 year.

 

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